Tuesday, August 18, 2015

Valentine Collins .... Facts or Fiction ? Part 1

I recently had an email exchange with a cousin (paternal side, first cousin once removed).  We were discussing an upcoming family reunion and I was updating him on my resent genetic genealogy matches etc. He asked me an interesting question, "What conclusions have you come to ?"

My reply was this: " I haven't really come up with any conclusions, except for the fact that Valentine and Vardy Collins do not share the same Father, and that is fact. Conclusions are hard to come by, when you have limited data/information. For instance, not a soul on this Earth knows who Valentine's parents were , or when or where he was born. There are many theories stated as fact, that aren't  fact, they are 'Myth' See link.....  Myth ".

As far as I'm concerned, without  solid facts, documentation and reliable sources, it's impossible to come to a 'conclusion' concerning any genealogy. Best to refrain from 'Jumping to Conclusions'.

This makes me think of all the misinformation on the Internet concerning my 4th Great Grandfather.

Valentine Collins is my double 4th Great Grandfather, I descent from 2 of his son's,  David Collins is the direst male line, and Joshua Collins from an 'inter-married' line. David and Joshua married sisters, Mary and Elizabeth Dale. These 2 line have been my main scope of focus concerning researching family history.

Back to 'conclusions', I am just amazed  at some of the conclusions that some researchers have come to concerning the Valentine Collins line. Bless their hearts for having an interest / kinship to this line. Some are so far fetched, they are hilarious. I haven't found  1 public family tree (I don't know about the private ones) on Ancestry.com that has it right, which I find amazing.

From my 17 years of research on my Collins line, I can honestly say that this line 'brickwalls' with Valentine. There are many Valentine Collins 'family trees' on Ancestry.com and other sites, that don't agree with my assessment.

I'm gonna start with some basic facts, that I know to be true, I'll follow that with some screen shots and examples of  'poor conclusions'. If any reader of this blog disagrees with my findings, I welcome comments. You can post comments at the bottom of this page.

In 2003, the first Y-DNA test was done at FTDNA for the Valentine Collins line, I was tested (David Collins line), then in 2008 we had another Valentine Collins descendant (Joshua Collins line ) tested.
These 2 lines matched, and to this day, we are the only 2 Collins' that do match. Our most common Y-DNA matches are with the Surname  'Bunch'.

Our original haplogroup was E3a. Since then haplogroup  names have changed. In my case E3a evolved to E1b1a, then to E1b1a8a, then to E1b1b1a1a1b1a, and at present by the Geno 2  system E-CTS10652. There is also a 'shorthand version'.

It would be ideal if we could find and have tested direct male descendants of Valentine's other 3 son's 
Hiram Collins, and Otary Collins.

The first time Valentine Collins shows up on public records is on the 1787 Wilkes County, North Carolina tax records.

Most say Valentine Collins was born in 1768 or in 1769 in Wilkes County, North Carolina. The biggest problem with that is, Wilkes County wasn't formed until 1777 from Surry County  and Washington District (now Washington County, Tennessee).

This 1768 date was an estimate by a Collins researcher years ago, she told me so herself, in an email exchange. It was never based on facts or documentation. There were no birth certificates in North Carolina in 1768, it was still under British rule. At best, it's an 'estimate' of when he was born. Plus this 'estimate' was based on the first records where Valentine Collins was first recorded.

The parents of Valentine are unknown, thus any siblings he might have had are also unknown.
Valentines date of death or place I haven't been able to find. It's often listed as February 7, 1854.
I've never seen a citation or document to verify this date, but I would love to.
 
The children of Valentine and Ludicia (Dicey) Collins nee Gibson are:

Obedience 'Biddy' Collins married William Cole
Margaret 'Peggy' Collins married Christopher Auxier
Joshua Collins married Elizabeth Dale
David Collins married  Mary 'Polly' Dale
Hiram Collins married Martha Dale
Otary Collins married Frances Nichols

So lets take a look at some of the (mis)information  posted on Ancestry.com :
Each 'Example' is from 1 family tree, I have no idea who these Family Tree's belong to.

Example 1:

Valentine's birth couldn't possibly be in Wilkes County, NC, as Wilkes County wasn't formed until 1777 from Surry County  and Washington District (now Washington County, Tennessee).

Nor could he have died in Johnson County, KY, as Johnson County wasn't formed until 1843 from Floyd County, KY. Valentine Collins was on the US Census and Church records after 1808. Not to mention this same family tree shows Valentine having children born after 1808, go figure ?  


I have no reason to believe that Samuel Collins and Mary Waddell are the parent's of Valentine Collins, and have no idea what this 'conclusion' is based on. I've even seen where they take this Samuel Collins line back to England ?

Now for the siblings, Vardy Collins and Valentine Collins do not share the same Father, they have different Y-DNA haplogroups. As far as all the other ,at best they could be half siblings, but since I don't know who Valentine Collins parents are, I nor anyone else doesn't know either.



I'm not sure where this 'Price' came from in Dicey Collins' name, but it's commonly listed. Was it a bad transcription of the name 'Dicey' ?

This 'tree' left out Valentine's children, Obedience 'Biddy', Joshua, and Hiram, plus added a second David ?

Christopher Columbus Collins and Issac B. Collins are not son's of Valentine Collins, but are the son's of Rhesa Collins, who was the son of Patrick Collins. This family did live in both Floyd and Johnson Counties, but have no ties to the Valentine Collins line.

Bradley Collins is also not a son of Valentine Collins. He might be the son of Meredith Collins

Elijah Collins born 1812 ? does not match brothers David and Joshua via Y-DNA.

Example 2:

You gotta love this picture of  an 'Indian' with a Plains Indian headdress on, why not just use a photo of a 'Cigar Store Indian' ?
 
Again, on the Wilkes County date, there was no Wilkes County NC in 1769, February 7,1854 of a death date ? Citation needed.

I wonder if this death date might be from a bad transcription ? Valentine's son Joshua died February 7, 1854 in Johnson County.




Again we see the 'Price' in Dicey's name, I sure wish I knew where that come from ?

Obediah Collins ? Maybe a typo, I'm sure they meant  'Obedience', Obediah is a man's name.

Hiram Collins who married Martha Dale is not listed

Elijah Collins born 1812 ? does not match brothers David and Joshua via Y-DNA.

Again Isaac B. Collins is not a son of Valentine Collins, but a son of Rhesa Collins, who was the son of Patrick Collins. Patrick Collins was born in Ireland.

Example 3:

Ashe County NC ? I think not, Ashe County wasn't formed until 1799 ?
 
Again the February 7, 1854 date appears. I have no reason to believe Valentine Collins ever lived in Johnson County. I wonder if this death date might be from a bad transcription ? Valentine's son Joshua died February 7, 1854 in Johnson County

Example 4:


Well here is the 'Chief' again. Plus the Wilkes County NC myth shows it's face again. Hawkins County TN ? That's a new one on me. I wonder where that came from. I emailed Jack Goins who is the Hawkins County , TN County Archivist. He stated there were no birth certificates in Tennessee in 1854, so where did this information come from ?


Samuel Collins and Mary Waddell show up on this tree also, but where is the citation ?, what is this based on ?

The 'Half siblings' are based on guess work too, again what is this based on ?




Here is shown Ludicia (Dicey Collins ?) born in 1770......


Right off the reel 'Ludicia' born 1770 gets 7 years older, and is born in 1763.

Meredith Collins is certainly not a child of Valentine Collins, Owen Gibson ? I have no idea who he is.

Again Christopher Collins is the son of  Rhesa Collins, who was the son of Patrick Collins.

Hiram Collins who married Martha Dale is not listed


Like a broken record...Issac B. Collins is the son of  Rhesa Collins, who was the son of Patrick Collins.

Hiram Collins who married Martha Dale is not listed

Amanda Collins is Valentine Collins' Grand Daughter, daughter of Joshua Collins and Elizabeth Dale,

I have no idea who David Collins 1837 is ?  But if he is Valentine's son and Dicey was born in 1763,

Dicey would have had him at the age of 74, very unlikely. A citation sure would help.

Elijah Collins born 1812 ? does not match brothers David and Joshua via Y-DNA.
Example 5:


This family researcher keeps up on current events. The '(Bunch)' , is an interesting touch, but the truth be known, we haven't figured out the connection between Valentine Collins and his Bunch DNA connections. It's a work in progress. Was Valentine's father a Bunch ? , or was an earlier generation where this took place?  Since it's my match, I will be sure and post on his Blog, when we know exactly what the connection is.

I like my Geno2 haplogroup was shown. Nice touch.


So Valentine's parents were Bunch? and Mary Waddell. I don't  think so. If I were to guess, I would think that Valentine was 'natural born' , his Father or Grandfather being a Bunch and his Mother or Grandmother a Collins, and Valentine was given his Mother's or Grandmother's surname. But that's just a guess.

Half siblings, if I had some citations to back up this 'guess work' , I might have an opinion.

I can say for sure Meredith Collins is not Valentine's half sibling, and I doubt the others are.


Hiram Collins who married Martha Dale is not listed

There's that 'Price' nick name used again.

I have no idea who Naomi is, never heard of her, a citation is needed.

Elijah Collins wasn't born in 1805, Joshua Collins was,  I don't think a woman could have 2 children in the same year, unless they are twins.

Elijah Collins born 1812 ? does not match brothers David and Joshua via Y-DNA.

Example 6:

Wilkes County again, Wilkes County wasn't formed until 1777 from Surry County  and Washington District (now Washington County, Tennessee).

Would love to see the citation on Valentine's 1840 death.

 


This family tree shows yet another set of parents for Valentine Collins. I've seen the couple as a theory for Vardy' Collins' parents. Vardy and Valentine don't share the same parents.

Looks like more 'fill in the blanks' on the siblings. Citations please.


This family tree did have the children of Valentine Collins correct, except for Elijah Collins born 1812 ? who does not match brothers David and Joshua via Y-DNA.

Example 7:


2 photos of the same woman , Obedience 'Biddy' Cole nee Collins.She is my double 3rd Great Aunt.

I'd like to see the citation that she was born in Madison County, Kentucky in 1804.

Death in 1839 in Ivyton, Magoffin County , Kentucky ?  Magoffin County wasn't formed until 1860 from Floyd, Johnson and Morgan Counties. Ivyton didn't get a name and Post Office until 1883. I wonder what County did did die it.

I have a hard time believing these photos are of Aunt Biddy, as photography as we know it, wasn't invented till 1839 in France.

UPDATE: I received a comment from Ron Collins,  a Griffin Collins descendent today  (2/11/2016):

"Don, Obediance Biddy Collins Cole was married to my 5th maternal great grandfather William Cole. I have never seen the second photo, but the top photo of lady in plaid dress is Biddy Wadkins b. May 1843 d. April 6,1908.First record of her with Wm Cole is 1850 Floyd Co. KY census age 7. Her mother Rebecca Wadkins is shown as family cook. She married Wm Cole and had children. Her daughter Biddy Wadkins married George Washington Perkins, a paternal 3rd Great Grandfather to me. My line is from Griffin Collins Sr."

I could post more examples, but I think I have made my point. I'm gonna post 2 more sequels to this blog post, the next one will be about mis-information posted on blogs and web sites. The 3rd will be an updated Valentine Collins Timeline.

 
That's my 2cents....


15 comments :

  1. Hi I'm trying to work on my family tree I'm a cole never meet no Collins so don't know bout them but would love to have my tree right for my kids if you could help me thanks

    ReplyDelete
  2. Brad, I would be more than glad to try and help you, email me privately at:
    collinsda17 at gmail.com

    ReplyDelete
  3. Brad, No I'm not, with that said, be very careful of the 'family trees' on ancestry.com,
    many aren't based on documented facts.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Don, Obediance Biddy Collins Cole was married to my 5th maternal great grandfather William Cole. I have never seen the second photo, but the top photo of lady in plaid dress is Biddy Wadkins b. May 1843 d. April 6,1908. First record of her with Wm Cole is 1850 Floyd Co. KY census age 7. Her mother Rebecca Wadkins is shown as family cook. She married Wm Cole and had children. Her daughter Biddy Wadkins married George Washington Perkins, a paternal 3rd Great Grandfather to me. My line is from Griffin Collins Sr.
    Note, I have copied old tin type photos and they turn out like a modern photo.

    Best Regards,
    Ron Collins


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ron, thank you so much for the clarification, I posted an update on my blog post.
      Looks like we could be distant kin a few different ways. Thanks again

      Delete
  5. Don, I n trying to find out who Griffin Collins father is I feel it is as follows;

    Griffin Collins b. ca. 1773
    David Collins b. ca. 1756 , Both are at elk creek at the same time
    Samuel Collins b. ca.1724
    Thomas Collins b. ca. 1708
    Catherine McCollins b. ca 1687, all of her children were considered illegitimate, father being a black slave.

    I may be wrong but I feel this atkes my line back to ca.1687

    Best Regards
    Ron Collins

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Looks like we are in the same boat, I'm brick walled with my 4th Great grandfather,
      Valentine Collins, who was born a little earlier than your Griffin Collins.
      Interesting observation on Catherine McCollins

      Delete
  6. Mr. Collins, my daughter matches your Gedcom on Gedmatch... I have been researching for her for about a year ... She's only 10 and can't appreciate fully how important her family history is right now, but she loves the pictures I find. Her dad and I have been divorced for years , he knows very little of his family history, so I'm hoping she will be able to pass down to her children one day where her dad hasn't been able to... I feel you can understand yourself better when you know your families past.. I'm going to email you privately.. Thank you for the work you are doing. It's so important to have factual documentation as you have stated above for the generations to come ...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I hope my research will be of help with your family research. Please do email me privately.

      Delete
  7. Mr. Collins, thank you for your hard work ... Very interesting article.. My 10yr old daughter matches your Gedcom on Gedmatch., I have been researching her family history for over a year now.. If you don't mind I'm going to email you..

    ReplyDelete
  8. Again you are welcome. This article was the first of a series, I've posted up to Part 5, and am working on Part 6

    ReplyDelete
  9. Donald,
    I am researching my Collins heritage. It is so confusing! My spouse and I are traveling to Sneedville, Tn. where Vardy Collins is buried under the road and there is quite a history of the "triracial" group. I would love to converse with you.

    Janet Collins Burris (Eual, Silas, Robert, Eli, Samuel, Thomas Collins...I think is my line of history).

    My email address is janet_burris_2000@yahoo.com

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I just sent you a private email to your email address. Looking forward to hearing from you.

      Delete
  10. Lisa Kimball SandsJune 6, 2017 at 2:35 PM

    I am a direct descendent of Valentine Collins and Biddy Collins. Valentine is my 6th great grandfather and biddy is my 5th great grandmother. My direct line is Maxine Jordan - her mother Mary Barnett - her mother Louisa Cole - her mother is Rebecca Nickels - her mother is Mima Cole - her mother is Biddy Collins. I find this information very interesting and thank you for sharing.

    ReplyDelete