Tuesday, September 1, 2015

Valentine Collins .... Facts or Fiction ? Part 3

 Part 3 of the continuing effort I've undertaken to clean up misinformation concerning my double 4th great-grandfather, Valentine Collins, both on the internet and in print.
Here we go again, more 'hogwash'. This time from a web site called 'bunchcousins', owned by Mr. Russ Kilicker.  So lets take a look and make the appropriate corrections:


"Dow's earliest record places him near Albany KY where Valentine Collins (1) (Vardy Collins' line, Vardy was a Core Melungeon) is written about in the Clear Fork Baptist Church minutes (ref. the book "Lighthouse in the Wilderness").  In these minutes in (2)1802, Valentine Collins was paid for building a coffin for a bro. Bunch.  (3) Valentine Collins is supposed to have led a band of Saponis in that area."

1. Vardy's line ? A line runs straight, so how is Valentine Collins in Vardy Collins' line. Citation please. We know Valentine Collins and Vardy Collins do not share the same Father, we also do not know who the Mother of each of these Collins men was. I challenge this 'writer' to show what line he is talking about.

2. 1802 ? Really, Valentine Collins does not show up in these Church records until September 1806 (shown as Valentine Collenson), in September of 1807 this Church is done with him. Again 1802 ? What's wrong with this ? it puts Valentine Collins in a place that he wasn't at. Shame, shame.......

These minutes do not state Valentine Collins built a coffin for 'bro Bunch', here is a transcription (transcribed by myself, from Clear Fork Baptist Church minutes, published untranscribed in the book "Lighthouse in the Wilderness")  of what the minutes do in fact say:

September 1807:  Valentine COLLINS neglected to hear the church, non-
        fellowship with him and will inform the church on Black
        Water. Isaac DENTON, Wm GOODSON, Harden
        WILLIAMS to write a letter to that church. James
        WILLIAMS allowed to keep the horse which was pro-
        vided by this church and Beaver Creek Church for the
        use of paying Bro BUNCH to Bro JOHN LEE and
        making Bro BUNCH's coffin. Letter of dismission to
        Anne LEE and Wm BOND and his wife

Where on earth does this say Valentine Collins built this coffin ? Wishful thinking.

3. What band of Saponi Indians ? Citation please, name the Saponi's that were in this 'band'.

Here is my take on all this information, good example of 'Construct Genealogy', meaning using half truths to construct what you want.

All this information was posted under " Dow Bunch's Cherokee and "Melungeon" Connections:"

So he rides on the coat tail of Valentine Collins, spins facts, and this is showing a connection to the Melungeons ? I think not.

"Dow was born sometime between 1810 and 1820". That would be 3 to 13 years after Valentine Collins left Cumberland County, Kentucky, how would that be a connection? Don't make any sense to come to that conclusion.

If Mr. Klicker wants to 'construct' his family history, that's no concern of mine. It becomes a concern of mine, when he for what ever reason, included my 4th Great Grandfather, Valentine Collins.

I had shared this information with a Bunch cousin of mine who lives in East Tennessee, here is what they had to say "And if you don't know the facts, state that it is pure speculation, and you have no documents."

I wish Mr. Klicker good luck with his family research, and can only say, Well Bless His Heart.
That's my 2 cents....


  1. Hey Don,

    I agree that publishing "facts" without citations is poor practice and liable to lead others (in addition to oneself) astray. But I can vouch that Russ is a pretty good guy -- most of the stuff on "Bunch Cousins" was posted quite awhile ago and I think he was earnestly looking for answers. The y-DNA of his Bunch line doesn't match the main Bunch group, but that seems to be the case of a whole lot of families that came through Kentucky.

    Thanks for the great post, and especially for the transcribed citation from the Clear Fork Baptist Church minutes. I'm (very) slowly working my way through the Bunch project's patriarch trees, adding notes (see the project's "Discussion" page), and hope I can hit you up for additional information when I get to Valentine Collins.

    Happy New Year!

    -Mark Bunch (marktherustic AT hotmail.com)

    1. Mark,
      Thanks for the comment.Regardless how old his post was, it was not correct information. Plus why drag my family history into his ? I have no reason to believe he is kin to my Collins.